I was just thinking to my self and wondering how it is that the US uses OFA only for health results? The AKC is a member of FCI I should IMO follow their rules as does the rest of the member countries within FCI when it comes to this.

It would be much easier and more fair if all dogs were x-rayed with the same principals and the results judged by the same system all around the world instead of the way things are now.

For instance it's nearly impossible to know for certain what a OFA Hips Good would translate to if the same x-rays were read and judged by FCI rules.

One might purchase a dog from the US who has OFA Hips Good, bring it to Sweden and have the x-rays done again by FCI rules and then get a worse result such as grade 1 (HD C) for instance. Leaving the new owner devastated because he/she now owns a dog not suitable for what was intended originally.

What would it take to get the AKC to accept only FCI readings?

There is something in AKC's charter that prevents it from becoming a full FCI member like the rest of the countries.

But AKC does have a "working" relationship with FCI in that AKC recognizes FCI pedigrees; and AKC IS the one entity that FCI works with in USA (just as it recognizes just ONE kennel club entity in each of it's member countries).

I think it works fine. Individual breeders should be able to work out things like hip x-rays and do the back and forth needed in this regard...

Carla

If you are buying a dog from USA, what is keeping anyone form having x-rays sent over to be read by FCI before the dog is purchased or sent over?

shadyblueamstaffs wrote:If you are buying a dog from USA, what is keeping anyone form having x-rays sent over to be read by FCI before the dog is purchased or sent over?

You can transfer a official OFA result to most countries in Europe and they registrer them in their database.

I wasn't aware of the fact that ACK isn't a full member of FCI.
That explains things then.

Yes of course it's possible to send x-rays from the US to europe and get them evaluated by FCI but it would be much more simple if AKC already followed FCI standards in evaluations so that this wouldn't be necessary.

I have also noticed that very few breeders/dog owners even have official x-ray results of their dogs published in OFA. Why is that?

Here in Sweden for example, most breeders nowadays have their entire litters examined for both HD & ED when they reach the age of 12-18 months.

All serious breeders over here use only animals with official results in their breeding as well, and very few tolerate results worse than HD grade C (mild) and then mainly in combination with a HD grade A (excellent). Same goes for ED.

It is also proved that OFA good very well might become HD C when re x-rayed over here. Some get ever worse results. With that said, very few in the nordic region have faith in the OFA readings. We just don't know what to make of them.

With HD and ED being such a big deal within the breeding program it would benefit everyone if all dogs regardless what country they live in was examined and judged by the more "accurate" FCI way.

Is there anything that prevent US breeders from getting their dogs evaluated by FCI? Large costs, complications etc?

@ Badazz, we here in the states could ask all the europeans the same thing. What is keeping all of you from sending your x-rays to OFA, because I personally have seen several dogs over in europe receive HD-A results, but did not get OFA excellent here in the states, so this makes me lose faith in foreign scoring systems as well.

I will state, that I don't necessarily think one system is better than the other, but I could ask you the same question, When is FCI going to change to AKC? This breed is called the "American" Staffordshire Terrier orginally registered with the "American" Kennel Club. Why should we change?

I would like to know when most of the europeans are going to start heart testing. You ask why some don't even hip test here, so how about us asking why most serious breeders in europe don't even heart test?

Oh and would it be possible for you to name the dog that received OFA good scoring, and also received HD C rating? Also is there more than one dog? or just one that has received scores like this?

Also, out of curiosity, I would be willing to send a set of my OFA Good x-rays into FCI to be graded. If someone could get me the info on how to do it and it isn't outragously expensive then I will be more than willing to send some for comparison.

shadyblueamstaffs wrote:@ Badazz, we here in the states could ask all the europeans the same thing. What is keeping all of you from sending your x-rays to OFA, because I personally have seen several dogs over in europe receive HD-A results, but did not get OFA excellent here in the states, so this makes me lose faith in foreign scoring systems as well.

I will state, that I don't necessarily think one system is better than the other, but I could ask you the same question, When is FCI going to change to AKC? This breed is called the "American" Staffordshire Terrier orginally registered with the "American" Kennel Club. Why should we change?

I would like to know when most of the europeans are going to start heart testing. You ask why some don't even hip test here, so how about us asking why most serious breeders in europe don't even heart test?

Oh and would it be possible for you to name the dog that received OFA good scoring, and also received HD C rating? Also is there more than one dog? or just one that has received scores like this?

Also, out of curiosity, I would be willing to send a set of my OFA Good x-rays into FCI to be graded. If someone could get me the info on how to do it and it isn't outragously expensive then I will be more than willing to send some for comparison.

I agree that FCI is not better than OFA and OFA is not better than FCI - who decide what is best.
There is not even a systen in the FCI system if your dog is rated A in Italy it can still be rated C in Belgium.
I would like a system that grate that same all over - and it should not be possible to get a different result in another country and in some countries you can pay for the result you like because of corruption.
I don't know in practice how fx I could get my dogs hips rated in the USA??

Oh and also wanted to add that OFA is not the only health organization that us americans use. There is also PennHIP for hips and another registry for hearts and another registry for eyes.

Kira wrote:

shadyblueamstaffs wrote:@ Badazz, we here in the states could ask all the europeans the same thing. What is keeping all of you from sending your x-rays to OFA, because I personally have seen several dogs over in europe receive HD-A results, but did not get OFA excellent here in the states, so this makes me lose faith in foreign scoring systems as well.

I will state, that I don't necessarily think one system is better than the other, but I could ask you the same question, When is FCI going to change to AKC? This breed is called the "American" Staffordshire Terrier orginally registered with the "American" Kennel Club. Why should we change?

I would like to know when most of the europeans are going to start heart testing. You ask why some don't even hip test here, so how about us asking why most serious breeders in europe don't even heart test?

Oh and would it be possible for you to name the dog that received OFA good scoring, and also received HD C rating? Also is there more than one dog? or just one that has received scores like this?

Also, out of curiosity, I would be willing to send a set of my OFA Good x-rays into FCI to be graded. If someone could get me the info on how to do it and it isn't outragously expensive then I will be more than willing to send some for comparison.

I agree that FCI is not better than OFA and OFA is not better than FCI - who decide what is best.
There is not even a systen in the FCI system if your dog is rated A in Italy it can still be rated C in Belgium.
I would like a system that grate that same all over - and it should not be possible to get a different result in another country and in some countries you can pay for the result you like because of corruption.
I don't know in practice how fx I could get my dogs hips rated in the USA??

Getting your dogs x-rays read by OFA only cost 20.00 US dollars and the postage to send the x-rays to OFA. One place for our entire country. But through OFA "3" different qualified people read the x-rays, so it is not just one persons opinions on the hips.

If I wanted my dogs FCI scored, I would not even have a clue where to send them, each country scores hips differently, so how would I even know which country to send them to? I also thought the dog would need an FCI pedigree to get FCI hip results? No?

shadyblueamstaffs wrote:

Kira wrote:

shadyblueamstaffs wrote:@ Badazz, we here in the states could ask all the europeans the same thing. What is keeping all of you from sending your x-rays to OFA, because I personally have seen several dogs over in europe receive HD-A results, but did not get OFA excellent here in the states, so this makes me lose faith in foreign scoring systems as well.

I will state, that I don't necessarily think one system is better than the other, but I could ask you the same question, When is FCI going to change to AKC? This breed is called the "American" Staffordshire Terrier orginally registered with the "American" Kennel Club. Why should we change?

I would like to know when most of the europeans are going to start heart testing. You ask why some don't even hip test here, so how about us asking why most serious breeders in europe don't even heart test?

Oh and would it be possible for you to name the dog that received OFA good scoring, and also received HD C rating? Also is there more than one dog? or just one that has received scores like this?

Also, out of curiosity, I would be willing to send a set of my OFA Good x-rays into FCI to be graded. If someone could get me the info on how to do it and it isn't outragously expensive then I will be more than willing to send some for comparison.

I agree that FCI is not better than OFA and OFA is not better than FCI - who decide what is best.
There is not even a systen in the FCI system if your dog is rated A in Italy it can still be rated C in Belgium.
I would like a system that grate that same all over - and it should not be possible to get a different result in another country and in some countries you can pay for the result you like because of corruption.
I don't know in practice how fx I could get my dogs hips rated in the USA??

Getting your dogs x-rays read by OFA only cost 20.00 US dollars and the postage to send the x-rays to OFA. One place for our entire country. But through OFA "3" different qualified people read the x-rays, so it is not just one persons opinions on the hips.

If I wanted my dogs FCI scored, I would not even have a clue where to send them, each country scores hips differently, so how would I even know which country to send them to? I also thought the dog would need an FCI pedigree to get FCI hip results? No?

'
If you have AKC I think it will be ok because they cooperate with FCI.
I think if you send them to Denmark fx you have to registrer your dog in the kennel club as far as I know. And I don't know if they rate photos taken in USA - maybe some other know that?

Badazz wrote:I wasn't aware of the fact that ACK isn't a full member of FCI.
That explains things then.

Yes of course it's possible to send x-rays from the US to europe and get them evaluated by FCI but it would be much more simple if AKC already followed FCI standards in evaluations so that this wouldn't be necessary.

I have also noticed that very few breeders/dog owners even have official x-ray results of their dogs published in OFA. Why is that?

Here in Sweden for example, most breeders nowadays have their entire litters examined for both HD & ED when they reach the age of 12-18 months.

All serious breeders over here use only animals with official results in their breeding as well, and very few tolerate results worse than HD grade C (mild) and then mainly in combination with a HD grade A (excellent). Same goes for ED.

It is also proved that OFA good very well might become HD C when re x-rayed over here. Some get ever worse results. With that said, very few in the nordic region have faith in the OFA readings. We just don't know what to make of them.

With HD and ED being such a big deal within the breeding program it would benefit everyone if all dogs regardless what country they live in was examined and judged by the more "accurate" FCI way.

Is there anything that prevent US breeders from getting their dogs evaluated by FCI? Large costs, complications etc?

It is my understanding that even in FCI countries the rating systems are not all the same. Which country should the US dogs' films be sent to?

I would be interested to know how the hips are scored in the various countries. Do you use an xray that is similar to the OFA or like Pennhip? Are the dogs sedated? How many radiologists examine the xray? Where are they trained? Is it the same for all countries? If there is not a universal system in all FCI countries, it would not be very helpful to send US xrays overseas. I have not seen a dog get worse scores when it is examined in Europe versus OFA. I have only seen the opposite. That the OFA score is worse than the FCI. I have never heard that one or the other is more "accurate".

The OFA would not allow official scores at 12 months, there are still changes that can happen in the dog's hips while they are growing. We score them at 2 years of age. If I were sending an adult dog overseas, or someone wanted to use a male, I would be happy to send films to FCI. I would not just do it on all my dogs for no reason. I already screen them here and sell almost all of them here.

I don't know why more people do not OFA their hips. This breed has traditionally not had a good history of health testing. Mostly because older breeders felt that if the dog can run and function to an old age, they are probably sound dogs. However, we know now this is not the best way to plan a breeding program, we are breeding our dogs before they prove they can function into old age, lol. Fifteen years ago, there were very few people using OFA as a tool in their breeding program. Now we are using it more and more.

But in the US, it is the breeder's choice to health test or not. We do not have mandatory temperament testing nor health testing. Therefore, you will have some breeders who do check their dogs and others who do not. Some check hips, elbows, hearts, thyroid and eyes. We can also register our dogs with other registries. Like PennHip for hips and CERF for eyes and ARCH for hearts. It doesn't have to be OFA.

There are also European breeders who do not health test. Italy, for example, seems to be notorious for no testing. In other countries, it is required for breeders to test. Until there is a universal system, it is difficult to say that everyone should do it this way or that way.

As Carla said, it can be worked out with each breeder. This person should have had the dog checked by FCI if the score meant so much to her. I would also look into the ethics of the breeder of that dog. If someone wants to cheat OFA, they probably can.

rowynruffians wrote:It is my understanding that even in FCI countries the rating systems are not all the same.

Rating systems are different since the FCI is a world organization (World Canine Organisation) with members from Mexico, Australia, Azerbaijan, Bolivia for example. Each country has a different rating system. It would be good and helpful to have an universal rating system.
If you send US x-rays overseas you can get higher score in China (FCI) and worse score in Germany (FCI) for example.

rowynruffians wrote:How many radiologists examine the xray? Where are they trained?

Ideally two radiologist from the University of Clinical Veterinary Medicine. But as I said it is not the same in all FCI countries.

The AKC has at some point applied for membership within FCI. The breed AST has also applied and been granted by FCI. With that said it's only reasonable to expect the AKC and the breed of AST will follow FCI rules and not the other way around.

The breed standard however, belongs to the country of origin: USA.

I used the word accurate loosely ( " ") because I cannot for 100% insist that the FCI readings are in fact superior and 100% more trustworthy than the OFA readings. But from what I have noticed personally, it seems that the OFA is more forgiving when ratings hips and elbows in contrast to Sweden and the Nordberg reading for example. I did not think before I wrote my initial question, because I for a minute forgot the fact that not all European countries use the exact same measurement in grading HD resullts. The Swedish reading is considered to be the most strict of all in Europe.

When it comesto ED evaluations, the OFA Grade 1 is up to 3mm before becoming grade 2 while in Sweden the limit for Grade 1 is 2mm. Many dogs with OFA ED Grade 1 would be Grade 2 in Sweden.

The exact number of people in the veterinary team grading x-rays for SKK's database is unknown to me, but I am 99% certain that there are 2-3 of them. Few years ago we had only one person responsible for grading all x-rays for the SKK's official database. He started in the 70's and was replaced by a new team in 2006-2007.

The x-rays for FCI HD are made the same way as OFA. With the dog lying on it's back with legs pulled traight and knees up. I use Plegicil vet. only, when sedating my dogs for x-rays (injected by the vet of course). But there are other sedations used as well. I personally believe this to be the best drug suitable for receiving as accurate results as possible. Some sedations make the dog too relaxed and will create an unatural looseness in its joints resulting in a faulty result.

In Sweden (cannot speak for other countries) it is custom for the vet to perform a full check-up on the dog each year when it gets its vaccinations renewed. This examination consist of a heart check as well, done with a stethoscope. Any heart murmurs or irregularities in the hearts rhytm would be noticable and the owner would be recommended to have an ultrasound made of the heart. I have fortunely not had to worry about that with any of my dogs. Knock on wood...

It is this ultrasound that will become official in SKK database.

The PennHip is available in Sweden as well. Some animal hospitals perform this type of x-rays and sends the pictures to the US for evaluation. In my opinion it's a great tool for getting a sneak preview of what the joints of a puppy eventually will develop into when full grown. Great for a breeder thinking of keeping a puppy from a litter and not being 100% sure of which one. This way he/she will get something more to add to the list of pros & cons of each pup. But for a full grown dog I would want an individual judgement of my dogs hips compared to a graph of a normally developed hip-joint as the FCI/OFA does them and not evaluated and graded based on the average results of dogs withing the breed.

I know of a few dogs tested in OFA with good/fair result who were then re-tested in the Nordic region with much worse results. I am however not sure I want to name them here out of respect for their owners & breeders. I don't even know if that is allowed by forum rules? Possible slandering...?

As far as I know, anyone with a pedigree issued by an FCI joined member club can send their x-rays to be evaluated by SKK here in Sweden. The dog doesn't even have to be registered by SKK.

The cost should be about 40 USD in total.

Ps. I know that many europeans living in the baltic regions for example have very easy for "buying" better results from their vets.
The most reliable results come from the north; Denmark, Norway, Sweden & Finland as well as Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands & Austria. I personally don't have the same faith in results issued in the rest of the European countries. If the result isn't registered by the official kennel club of the country then I don't believe in it.

it works the same way over here...

dog get sudated, x-rays take by specialisted vet..
x-rays get send to the kennel club -> judged by 3 specialists

and check ups sounds like the same...

and must confess the system here might sound like a bunch of work, but it does work!